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[Feedback] Some Commando vs. Assault math

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Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1144	Posted - 2013.07.07 08:21:00 - [1] - Quote Hey, I found this interesting when I was looking at dropsuit fittings. Let's say you want to make a STD-level suit to mix it up on the field, one with a Commando, one with Caldari Assault. Now, the Caldari Assault already has the advantage of Fifty gazillion BPOs suits they've released for it instead of any other race. Let's pretend you have to pay for everything though. The Commando can benefit from those sweet passive skills more though, amiright?! So, at Rank of 4 of both Shield and Armor upgrades, he/she has 300 shields and 300 armor. Caldari Assault Suit = 3000 ISK Commando = 8000 ISK (obviously no race selection option here) The Commando has no module slots. The Caldari has 4. Let's use those to match the HP on the cheap. If you have a militia shield extender BPO to use with your Raven/Dren/Covenant/Dragonfly/every-other-assault-suit-released-ever, you can basically fill those high slots for free anyway. I put Shield Extenders and Plates at rank 1, and used an Aurum Enhanced plate. This was mostly so that the passives inherent in those skills would stay low in impact at rank 1. 2x Militia Shield Extender = 800 ISK 1x Basic Armor Plate = 900 ISK 1x Enhanced Armor Plate = 2415 ISK Grand totals: Caldari Suit: 7115 Commando: 8000 The Caldari : 297 Shields, 299 Armor vs. Commando 300 Shields, 300 Armor It should be noted that if the Caldari has Rank 3 in Plates to equip those Enhanced plates, they'll have 6 more hp, ergo, higher than the Commando by the same margin that the Commando is higher than them in this situation. There's more to it than that of course, how do the suits compare? Speed: Caldari is faster even with two plates by a large margin 4.64 m/s > 3.95 m/s Ouch... tough break. The cheaper suit is faster because that Commando suit is built to last, right? Shield Recharge: Caldari is higher by a whopping 250%, 25 recharge vs. 10 recharge. Shield Delay: Caldari is faster, 5s & 8s vs. 7s & 10s for Commando. The Commando is a full 2s slower on both. Well, that sucks hard, but the Caldari are the "shield" people. I mean, you can't expect other races to protect themselves. Grenade Slot: Caldari has one, Commando does not. How sad. Stamina: the same, their run is the same duration. Commando has slightly better Stamina regen 17 vs. 15 Even with the extra stamina regen, the huge speed gap means the caldari could backpedal away from you. Equipment Slot: Both have a single one. Profile: Heavy style, the Commando has the worst of it in every respect Melee: Commando's dmg is much higher. Good luck catching people that can backpedal faster than you sprint. Weapon Slots: Commando has two Light Weapons, Assault has Light and Sidearm The most useful element. It's the difference between the Assault and the Commando both carrying Swarm Launchers, but the assault being forced to use a Core Flaylock or Assault SMG instead of an AR.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1144	Posted - 2013.07.07 08:22:00 - [2] - Quote To sum up: In comparing with the STD Caldari, I was able to demonstrate a few things: You can get the same suit HP (or more) and still spend less ISK. You pay MORE for a suit that you'll die in more. The suit is more of a deathtrap in two ways. The most obvious is the speed. Inability to manuever, get away from sniper fire, be evasive when shot at, etc. are a much larger issue when you're as slow as the Commando. The second is the shield recharge. You'll wait longer and recover less per-tick than your assault brothers. So, more likely to be damaged, slower to recover, and the hp is the same as faster moving and recovering suits. You pay extra for this privilege. This is not just true of the ISK value of the suit, but SP cost. Heavy suits require more investment in dropsuit command than medium (Rank 3 instead of Rank 1). You don't get a grenade... for whatever reason. The equipment slot isn't a defining factor here. Basically, the sacrifices are too large for the benefit of another light weapon. It would only be useful if you're not in a firefight. If you are in a firefight, you're not necessarily equipped to take more punishment than an assault. They may have higher hp, and you'll be slower. Of course, you might think this is specific to STD level (when they have no slots). At PRO, the Commando has THREE slots. Guess how many more slots the Caldari gets when it jumps from STD to PRO? THREE. From STD to PRO, they both get 2 more high and 1 more low. Also, my goal in demonstrating "matching" the hp, was that you could do it cheaper than the cost of the suit. You can just easily be an assault that has a considerable advantage over a commando (aside from speed and shield regen which the Commando literally can't match ever) if you're not pinching ISK. Price jump is also interesting. Caldari PRO = 57k ISK, Commando PRO = 94k ISK. Talk about a mark-up for crap. This is completely separate from other issues like the lack of slots nixing the Commando's ability to get optimum performance out of the equipment it does have. For example, the calling card (two light weapons) is interesting, but the same weapon wielded by most any other suit at STD could have a damage mod (or two). It would make an especially large difference in weapons that would be suited to a role which can't seem to function well in close-combat (because of speed) like a sniper rifle or swarm launcher. So, the assault suits can make better use out of a given weapon and protect themselves better at the same time. In short, the Commando is ill-conceived, a death trap, over-priced in SP/ISK, and needs extensive reworking.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1145	Posted - 2013.07.07 08:49:00 - [3] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: You are underestimating how useful two light weapons are. However, CCP is overestimating how useful two light weapons are. I think they have worlds of possibilities. However, it doesn't matter what those possibilities might be if you're as slow as a heavy, have less hp than a assault, and can't use damage mods. It's not impossible to do something with it, but just because it's possible to kill a bear with a fork doesn't make it a good idea.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1152	Posted - 2013.07.07 11:52:00 - [4] - Quote Bullets2yaface wrote: wtf u cant say the commando has no modules then say the caldari has 4 as if they're comparable ONLY THE FIRST COMMANDO HAS NO MODULES proto caldari gets 4 u have no idea dude. If you're gona compare something make sure they're actually comparable. That said commando suits still are nothing a gimmick they are so useless its not funny ooo i can do av but i cant carry grenades how ****** is that. should've made regular heavies able to carry an hmg and a light instead I'm not sure if you're trolling or agreeing with me... but let me try to answer you. The comparison is between "STANDARD" suits. STD Commando is no modules, while STD Caldari Assault has 4 modules (2 high, 2 low). You can see exactly what I put in the 4 slots because I list it. Part of the point of that part of my post is explaining that you can fill those 4 slots to match the HP of the commando, and the Commando suit still costs more than the Assault + 4 modules. So, when you say, Quote: "u cant say the commando has no modules then say the caldari has 4 as if they're comparable" , I have to point out that those are what the stats of the two suits are at STD? However, I'd agree that they aren't comparable. The Caldari is much cheaper and better. As for, Quote: "proto caldari gets 4 u have no idea dude." Actually, a proto Caldari has 7 slots, 4 high and 3 low. This is pointed out as well when I say that both STD suits gain exactly 2 high slots and 1 low slot going from STD to PRO. Finally, when you said Quote:** "If you're gona compare something make sure they're actually comparable." Well, CCP will ultimately decide if the suits can be considered comparable. Right now it's no contest.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1257	Posted - 2013.07.10 03:38:00 - [5] - Quote I would've expected them to have much higher speed considering the hit they took the HP and Slots. They're running a very stripped-down suit compared to.... well, every other suit in the game (they're the only one with a no-slot suit, and their no-slot suit also can't carry grenades...). Yet, even while stripped down with respect to slots and lacking most of the shields/armor of a heavy, they're super slow. Seems odd.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1260	Posted - 2013.07.10 07:48:00 - [6] - Quote There's more than one way to fix it, but combining the sluggish speed with lower hp and no modules/grenades (and giving them a passive that's module-focused while they have the fewest slots at PRO of any suit in the game)... just... why?
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1263	Posted - 2013.07.10 14:07:00 - [7] - Quote RoundEy3 wrote: I would like to someday see this suit concept be worth something. Right now it's neat to think about how it could be decent, but nothing more. It a needs grenade slot, no doubt EDIT: What kind of commando doesn't carry grenades and explosives in the first place!? wth.. It needs a buff to base armor and shields, so that on a proto to proto comparrison with modules fitted it falls somewhere inbetween an assault and a heavy on the total hit points value. It needs "something". It's just got too many hits against it right now: low speed, lowest recharge (lower than regular Heavies, etc.), least modules, lower possible HP than Heavies OR Logis OR Assaults (Even scouts could have more if they used all their slots I think), and so on. It's just too crippled as-is. It makes a subpar front-line because of speed/hp, subpar distance-fighter without the slots, and low general flexibility without the slots.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1270	Posted - 2013.07.10 15:49:00 - [8] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bear in mind youre comparing Caldari, which are designed for quick skirmish and long range engagement versus the Amarr, which are deigned for balance in all areas at the cost of speed. The numbers would be a lot more interesting and viable if it were a Caldari Commando or an Amarr Assault. Time reveals all, butonly to those with the patience to committo it. Part of the reason I used a Caldari Assault is because it's the most-released suit STD BPO we have. Players have the option of Dragonfly, Covenant, Dren, Raven, etc. for their Caldari STD assault suit needs. Thus, for a lot of players it already present a very cheap option in the "STD" bracket, and in fact I was able to make these comparisons putting together a suit on the same account as the Commando since I had the BPO on-hand. I also had a militia shield extender BPO, making that item effectively free, so the fitting is even cheaper than I suggested on my end. So, even fully skilled into Commando (rank 5), the Caldari STD suit still appears a superior option even without any skills put towards it. The Amarr Assault is no slouch either though. It has the same set of slots available at STD level as the Commando does at PRO (2H, 1L) and higher base EHP than the Caldari. The caveat there is that while the Amarr has higher base hp, it's only a 30hp difference, and the Caldari is weighted towards shields (in which we have modules with lower hp totals to begin with). Ergo, it's harder to easily match high shield totals with singular modules because shield modules give less hp on average. The Amarr has fewer slots to try to match anything anyhow (as shorting the Amarr on slots for questionable hp gains and speed penalties is a running theme). So, while the Caldari can apparently easily match the Commando with a relatively low-level set of mods (with respect to hp), the Amarr has issues match the shields with anything but much more expensive mods. The Amarr can still do so, it just winds up requiring higher skill levels and more ISK. Rather than suggest the Commando is powerful though, this suggests to me that the speed and slot penalties the Amarr get in exchange for their HP boosts aren't particularly balanced at any level. The Amarr Assault's 30 hp advantage over Gall/Cald assaults is completely washed away by the module slots they get in comparison. This is born out by the fast that a single enhanced shield module or basic armor plates easily compensates for that "advantage" without giving the same speed penalty.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1315	Posted - 2013.07.15 12:52:00 - [9] - Quote Well, they kinda do. Amarr get hit doubly for their "hp bonus" - both shorted a slot and they get a speed hit. The speed hit can't be made up with modules (you can only increase sprint speed), and the hp difference can be made up without the speed loss to greater effect than the hp advantage. Basically, they pay too much for something of questionable worth. Other racial combos can outdo them on hp and speed at the same time which negates their advantage making them effectively the worst racial variant in the game. The racial bonuses they're given are doubly a joke (Commando or Amarr Logi) because they also rely on slots. They don't have the slots to make those advantages matter, and so other races beat them even in the areas where they have passive bonuses (compare Amarr logi and Gallente logi on armor repair). The game design right now has a "F' the Amarr" philosophy going, for whatever reason.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1319	Posted - 2013.07.15 16:37:00 - [10] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: It would make more sense to compare an Amarr assault to the Commando, since they're both Amarr And it's already been shown that CCP favors the Caldari in every respect I guess. The point here is that from an absolute cost-perspective, a player can outdo the commando with a much cheaper suit on pretty much every level. What race you're choosing really shouldn't enter into that. If CCP has designed the races so that a Caldari assault suit can beat an Amarr Commando in every conceivable way, comparing it to the Amarr assault instead won't change the fact that it's horribly imbalanced. This is aside from the fact that the Caldari Assault is THE ASSAULT suit to compare to. It's featured in all the ads, and it's seen many many BPO releases for it specifically. The Amarr Assault has no BPO released.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1349	Posted - 2013.07.22 00:02:00 - [11] - Quote I figured I'd reiterate that the Commando continues to suck. I think most people have avoided it (you rarely see them) which probably accounts for the lack of threads about it. It sucks to the point of being unsalvage-able in its current state. On the alt with Commando to 5, I still find using a Caldari STD suit BPO to be generally much much more effective even without any points in Caldari suits. That's how bad a proto Commando is.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1394	Posted - 2013.07.29 16:15:00 - [12] - Quote I spent time typing up an Amarr comparison earlier and the post got eaten. That said, the Amarr STD assault also compares very favorably with the Commando (same number of slots as the proto commando, better speed, shields, etc.). Instead of retyping it though, I decided it didn't matter. If the Caldari Assault at STD (a suit they've released in BPO form numerous times) is better than a more expensive suit (both in ISK and SP) in pretty much every possible way... the Commando is a failure. Two light weapons alone can't justify crippling EVERYTHING. I get that there would be some concerns balancing dual light weapons, but with module slots, speed, fitting, no grenade, low ehp, and shield recharge all crippled... it is a gimp-suit.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1395	Posted - 2013.07.29 18:42:00 - [13] - Quote Idye Lotz wrote: I use commando suits regularly. Melee is great in close quarters combat, when you get into gun battles and both sides empty clips (so long as other player isn't using a flaylocks, but then it would have never got that far). Though I tend to forget about the extra melee and just switch weapons. I have said from the beginning that the suit needs a grenade slot. Also a small built in armor repair would be nice. It isn't that great as an anti vehicle because you can't keep up with the LAV/HAV's. Actually the best use I have for it is for some counter sniping, or tact sniping of my own. However I have a feeling that it has a huge scan profile (I haven't looked to see) so even that is limited. Yeah, it has a heavy scan profile.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1423	Posted - 2013.07.31 19:58:00 - [14] - Quote Cyrille Fodeux wrote: My R*pe Suit is a Commando and I get a lot of Kills with it and a lot of hate mails so it does it's work properly This logic is like: Player A: My gun X is underpowered compared to gun Y. Here is the math (read: facts) Player B: I kill people with gun Y (anecdotal evidence), and so it obviously works properly (hasty generalization or idiocy). The numbers don't lie.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1435	Posted - 2013.07.31 20:12:00 - [15] - Quote Cyrille Fodeux wrote: Zeylon Rho wrote: Cyrille Fodeux wrote: My Rpe Suit is a Commando and I get a lot of Kills with it and a lot of hate mails so it does it's work properly This logic is like: Player A: My gun X is underpowered compared to gun Y. Here is the math (read: facts) Player B: I kill people with gun Y (anecdotal evidence), and so it obviously works properly (hasty generalization or idiocy). The numbers don't lie. Definition. It does it's work properly for me. I use it because it's fun with it and I have fun so it works. I dont pay a fck on my KDR then after these matches. I'm glad you have fun with it. Sometimes I run with weights to make it harder myself, and I've done low-level playthroughs of Dark Souls. Perhaps they can fix the suit so it has some sort of useful role for everyone else.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1437	Posted - 2013.07.31 21:21:00 - [16] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: if you use a militia caldar meduim frame (610isk), with 2 x militia sheild extenders (600isk), and 1 basic armor plate (610isk) you get circa the same ehp with a markedly lower cost (210 + 44 = 250 shield; 120 + 68= 188 armor) = 438 ehp well 500 ehp for a commando is slightly better than 438 ehp for a militia caldari medium frame. look at the prices: commando 8000 ISK @ STD militia caldari setup just mentioned, 1800isk @ militia wtf?....lol a milita suit and fitting that is basically free. if you choose caldari as your race most of this suff comes free on it already....lol oh and about the suit you made about the beginning. without using the enhanced armor plate you can stack on a armor rep md and their you go, longevity is increased by a larger amount than with the commando This is true. The module slots are generally going to give you more flexibility... repping, speed, whatever you want. No module slots leave you with just the HP. The point of the OP was to say that you don't even really have that advantage - you're full of suck and you pay extra for it.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1770	Posted - 2013.08.07 06:38:00 - [17] - Quote Nikea Nei wrote: I'd really like to see the Commando suit get some love. I took Commando to Proto, but the unskilled Dragonfly Scout and Dragon Assault are still much more useful to me as far as not dying and helping the team. Unfortunately, the Commando will seemingly be the King of "Get F'd" for the time being. Enjoy your Caldari super-suit in the meantime.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2003	Posted - 2013.08.22 08:20:00 - [18] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: The commando needs a major speed buff, since it has nothing going for it besides the 2 light weapon slots; its way too slow for that low HP. Well.... hp buff, speed bufff, slot buff, useful passive (not one that relies on slots when you have 3 at PRO, e.g. worthless at STD), etc. There's lots of ways they could fix things. The Commando has a perfect storm of issues at the moment, and the dual-LW perk isn't quite enough to compensate. Commandos that "do okay" usually avoid roles that move much I've noticed (Sniper/Swarm), but they wind up being subpar at that too. It's just that the roles they've picked are less dangerous by their nature. That is, if you've been placed on the roof somewhere with a swarm and a sniper, you're already out of range for a lot of players, and you have a good vantage to use your weapons. That would be true regardless of role. They'd still be packing fewer damage mods max and less hp at that point.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2141	Posted - 2013.08.27 11:28:00 - [19] - Quote Dehlia Metii wrote: Commandos are so rare that I think they became a "New Coke" sort of thing. People rushed out and tried them, figured out they sucked, then dropped them. Anyone that's played for any length of time knows how long the Logi thing took to be addressed. I assume you don't see posts about the Commando anymore because everyone's abandoned the unplayable goof since waiting could take forever and it's straight-up not usable now. I can confirm the Commandos are still... scarce and crappy. Maybe they get retooled when the other heavy suits come out... or something.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2150	Posted - 2013.08.27 14:53:00 - [20] - Quote trigonomics wrote: Commando suits are fun but not competitive. I skilled into Adv suits because I was bored of 7 months of HMG/FG monotony. It's fun to run around in pubs with Adv MD as a main weapon and a GEK as a side arm and actually get WP dropping UL and Hives. But with those two ADV weapons a Complex Damage Mod, Adv Repper and compact hives the Suit Runs me 58K (Somewhere around that I am not around my PS3 ATM). I think the suits need a module buff, a speed buff and maybe a decrease in price (never going to happen) or they will continue to be a novelty. Is anyone skilled into Proto suits? I don't think it is even possible to have 1 proto gun and one adv gun even with most of my passives skilled into 4 and 5. Yeah, Trig. I made this post after skilling into PRO Commando on my alt (also in-corp). She's got about 6.5-7 million invested, suits to PRO, several passives leveled up (Armor/Shield Passives maxed), and so on. The part that threw me for a loop was how much easier matches were just playing with fittings based on her STD Caldari Assault BPO (Dragonfly). That's why I crunched the numbers originally, because it seemed wrong that it was so much easier. As it turns out, there's some severe numerical... issues I guess. As a side note, the PRO suit looks very plain compared to most PRO suits... it doesn't have the red lights and black detailing. It makes me feel like it was rushed out.

Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 2410	Posted - 2013.09.24 22:11:00 - [21] - Quote Continues to be a horrible, horrible suit that needs balancing (read: buffing).

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